Lisette Sutherland: How to Build Strong Personal Connections in a Remote Team

Richard:

Hello, Lisette. Thanks for joining us.

Lisette:

Hello. I’m co-founder actually, I co-founded with Pilar and Mark Kilby, but I just want to shout out to them.

Richard:

Okay, perfect.

Lisette:

It was a collaborative effort for sure. But yeah, that’s a fun group. It’s lasted a long time.

Richard:

Pilar Orti and Mark Kilby. Yeah. They’re also good friends and well-known in the community of hybrid and remote working, which is what that’s all about.

Lisette:

Totally. In fact, you know, I met Pilar almost 10 years ago. I interviewed her for the podcast and I was doing it because I was researching my competitors and I wanted to see what they were doing. So I thought, oh, I’ll just sneakily invite them on my podcast and see what’s up. You know, you can find out a lot of information in an hour. But I liked Pilar so much that we became friends and then we decided like, well there’s no need to be competitors. There’s enough work for everybody. So why don’t we just collaborate together and have more fun and create a bigger market? And that’s what we did. It was a much better path.

Richard:

All right. I’m going to share my sponsorship message. This podcast is sponsored by me. To support this podcast, visit my website kasperowski.com. Lisette, tell me about your podcast.

Lisette:

Well, my podcast is “Collaboration Superpowers.” It’s stories of remote teams doing great things. And at the beginning we were really just trying to highlight people who were, I mean, because in the beginning, remote workers were the weirdos, right? The digital nomads. And like we were sort of this like weird cult off in the distance. But then since the pandemic, it became really mainstream. So in the beginning we were really highlighting the teams that were working remotely and what they were doing and sort of the great things they were doing. And now it’s turned more into how do teams transition to the hybrid mode because that’s like the whole world is transitioning to hybrid now. So we’ve just sort of switched the focus a little bit, or I’d say lazered in on a different topic.

Richard:

Right. Right. All right. And that’s where I usually ask, is there anything else you would add on to that introduction that I gave? Is there anything else to add on?

Lisette:

No, I would just say–

Richard:

The virtual team talk group.

Lisette:

Yeah. No, we’ve been busting people. I always like to say we’re busting people out of day prison for the last 10 years. So that’s what I call sort of the office, the mandated office structure. And I called it that in the very beginning as a joke, but then it just sort of stuck. So it feels like a day prison to me. So we’re liberating the workers.

Richard:

That’s so funny. Busting people out of the day prison of their jobs and their workplaces. We were reminiscing about the olden days of music and punk rock and post punk music. And it seems like it’s very aligned with this sort of do it yourself, take it to the man kind of stuff.

Lisette:

Yeah. And you know, it’s interesting. It was all about take it to the man, but I would have say it’s more do it yourself and freedom is really the main theme there ’cause nobody wants remote work. Like it’s not that everybody’s a remote work evangelist, but everybody wants freedom and you know, to be treated like a professional. So I think in the punk scene, it was also that. People just wanted more freedom and to be treated justly by society. I think everybody can long for that.

Richard:

Yeah. I love the way you say that. I think you just taught everybody who’s my age or our age, I’m not really sure how old you are.

Lisette:

47, I’m ashamed to admit it.

Richard:

All right. All right. You’re way younger than me. But anybody who’s about this age, I guess you just taught us what that whole punk and post punk movement was all about. Freedom, really. Freedom.

Lisette:

And I would say justice. Like justice for everybody. ‘Cause you know, especially in the US, that’s been a theme since the punk days and remains a theme today, but that’s a whole other topic.

Richard:

Totally. All right. So this podcast is about teams and I like to ask people to share about the best team they’ve ever been a part of in their life. Right? And this could be a work team. It could be a not work team, any group of two or more people aligned with shared goals. What is your best team ever?

Lisette:

I found this such a difficult question, really. I found this such a difficult question. And I actually went back and just looked at my work teams that I worked with just to see like, oh yeah– ‘Cause now I’ve been in the workforce for a long time, a number of years under my belt. And I was looking at the old teams and it’s very difficult to make that decision because from every team that I’ve worked on, the one thing that I’ve noticed is that I still have lasting friendships to this day from the very beginning. I mean, when I started my career, I was doing environmental work for an engineering firm, called CH2M HILL. And I worked with Canadian Dave, that’s not his real name. I called him Canadian Dave. He is from Canada. But to this day we’re still friends. Like he came to my honeymoon. He, you know, like he’s just been one of my best friends to that day. Also like the next team, like I’m still in touch with somebody from every team that I’ve worked on. So it’s really hard to decide, but I would have to say that my best team ever was the “Happy Melly” team that I worked on.

Richard:

The Happy Melly–

Lisette:

Yeah, the “Happy Melly” and slash “Management 3.0” team. And I would say that I went through a number of iterations, but what I liked about that team so much was, one, there was so much freedom. Like you could work whenever, like nobody even asked about your schedule. It wasn’t an issue. So that for me was very appealing. But the other thing that was so appealing was how much experimentation that we did on the team because it was headed at the time by Jurgen Appelo. You know, who’s very well known in the agile and the management space. He was constantly trying new things on that team. And you know, one point it was a little exhausting ’cause we’re like, oh man, another experiment, can’t we just work? On the other hand, looking back on it. It was a ton of fun. And the way that we did it, where we iterate and really learned from every iteration was really eye-opening and powerful. And I still have relationships. In fact, Tehera who works on the Management 3.0 team. She is also my accountant today, ’cause I just couldn’t live without her. So.

Richard:

What is “Happy Melly?”

Lisette:

“Happy Melly” was an umbrella organization back in the day, it sort of morphed into a variety of things. But at the time it was an umbrella organization that was collecting companies who were trying to make people happier at work. And so it was started like myself and “Collaboration Superpowers” was there, Jason Little from “Lean Change,” Serge from “Workshop Butler.” Like we all started under that umbrella. And the idea was to– We were companies that shared the same values of freedom and happiness and thought that there could be more happiness in the workplace. And so while we’re building our companies, why don’t we help each other out and grow the ecosystem bigger with each other? Like we’re all startups, we’re all in various phases, but we each have individual resources that we can use to help each other. So it was like a super mini incubator without any money. But every business in that incubator succeeded, you know, like Lean Change, Workshop Butler, Jurgen’s projects, Collaboration Superpowers. It did all work in the end.

Richard:

All right. All right. So, taking yourself back to the “Happy Melly” team. If you could summarize what that team felt like to you in one word, what’s your one word?

Lisette:

Oh my God. That is so hard. It was hard to narrow it down to what it felt like in general. But okay, one word. I’m going to call it symbiosis.

Richard:

Symbiosis.

Lisette:

What I mean by that is that we were better together than we were apart. In that way we had a symbiotic relationship. So everybody was fine on their own. We each had our own individual skills, but together as a team, we were way more than the sum of our parts. So that’s what I mean by symbiosis. It was just better. So I think, and that’s kind of what you’re going for with a team, right? It’s like–

Richard:

Yeah, totally, totally. Better together than individually. And probably better than, you know, if it were five people or 10 people, it’s better than five or 10 people’s worth of creativity or energy. It’s like multiplicative, right.

Lisette:

Oh yeah. I mean, it’s funny. It reminds me of this story. It wasn’t the same team, but it was back when I was working at CH2M HILL, we were cleaning up contaminated sites all throughout the central valley of California. And for every site that we were cleaning up, we had to submit these regular reports to the regulatory agency and we were doing like 30 or 60 sites at a time. So, and this is back in the day when you weren’t sending it via PDF, you like printed the physical report and had it shipped to the regulatory agency. So we just had every quarter, boxes and boxes of these reports went. In any case, they were really boring reports. We weren’t sure if they were getting read, they just had to be filed, you know, it was just part of the requirement. But in any case, somebody on the team happened to be a professional photographer. And he actually loved going out to all of these sites and like checking on them and like updating and stuff. And he saw these reports and he is like, you know, we could make these reports so much better if I just took a photo of every site and we used the photo of the site on the cover. It would also help the regulator understand what was going on. That’s the kind of thing that happens when you have a magic team, right? Like this guy could have done nothing and it would’ve been fine. Those reports would get submitted. Nobody would’ve even thought about it, but he was like, you know, extra initiative. How about I take the pictures? You know, like we make them pretty. And that’s the kind of magic I think you want on the team. And that’s what I mean by symbiosis.

Richard:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look in that case, here’s something I love doing and I have a skill and wouldn’t it be cool if–

Lisette:

Yeah. And why don’t we enhance what we’re already doing with a great cover. So they’re not so boring and it helps the regulator, you know, like look at the data and like, oh, here’s a picture of the site on the cover. That also helps. Like, it was just such a great team. And then when you have everybody doing stuff like that, that’s, you know, that’s where the innovation happens. One person’s like, oh, I’ll take pictures. The other person’s like, Ooh, I’ll, I mean, I don’t know, use pretty paper or I’ll, you know, make the fonts nice. I don’t know. But you know, you always have somebody contributing something. And at the end we had these stellar reports and actually we had great success with it. They loved it. So yeah. Anyway. Yeah.

Richard:

And somebody even read them.

Lisette:

Yeah, somebody may have even read them. Exactly. We hope. Now you would just transmit the data electronically, but–

Richard:

Yeah. The “Happy Melly” team, or this team that was doing the cleanup in central valley of California, how do you know that it’s a great team subjectively? What are some sensations or feelings or qualitative senses that this was a great team?

Lisette:

I’d say the one thing is we all felt excited to work together. So it was like, it’s not like you get up every day, like, “Woo-hoo, let’s get this party started.” Like, you know, that’s not normal. But it was still very motivating to be with these people because everybody was doing their job. And you wanted to be part of the group of people that was doing their job. Like you wanted to also be competent in the group. It’s like, you know, if you’re on a team with a group of slackers, you know, my friend Martha was actually saying this to me the other day, she’s like at work, everybody’s kind of in charge of their own projects. Nobody really cares or checks in if the projects are getting done or if anything’s happening on them. And she’s like, you know, I try to move the ball forward every week a little bit. Like, that’s not what I want on my team. I don’t want somebody like, “Eh, I guess if, since I can, you know, “since I don’t want to totally not do anything, “I guess I’ll move the ball forward.” Like I want somebody pushing the ball forward, you know? So yeah. So I think that was the quality, that one, we were excited about the work and we sought each other out. It’s like, even in our free time, we were kind of like, “Hey, what are you doing this weekend?” Or, you know, it’s like, if you’re at work and you want to go out for drinks after work with people, you know, like you only do that with certain people. You know, some people you just don’t connect with. Like, that’s the last thing I want to do is go have drinks in a bar. You know, like, no, no, no, no.

Richard:

How about objectively? You shared the idea that every one of the little companies that was part of “Happy Melly” ended up being successful. What else do you have for objective ways to observe that this was a great group?

Lisette:

Well, what I wrote down when I was preparing for this was that we smashed our goals and we had fun. So objectively, the results spoke for themselves. I would say, especially on the “Happy Melly” team. So objectively, I would say like, if you’re not collecting metrics on your team, I would start setting that up right away. And actually in Jurgen’s book, “Managing for Happiness” he has a whole chapter on the scoreboard index that I can recommend how to start setting up metrics for your team. ‘Cause if there’s anything I’ve learned about setting up metrics is that they move constantly. Like what you want to collect, how you collect it, the details, everything it’s never the same from month to month, if you’re doing it right. I think.

Richard:

So for “Happy Melly,” what were some of the goals and what were some of the measurements?

Lisette:

Well, we had, you know, specifics. I’m not going to remember so clearly, but we had OKRs that we set up with “Happy Melly.” And so we would have the ultimate goal. And it was usually at the time, if I can focus on Management 3.0 for example, there was a number of facilitators that they wanted to achieve. So we would have a goal of a number of facilitators and then everybody would come up with their own ways of like, how do I contribute to the organization so that in the end we get all these facilitators and we would check in every month on these goals. And then Jurgen had a whole metric spreadsheet that we would check in every Monday on like social media and, you know, followers. And just like who’s downloading things, how many people are on the mailing list. So just that we would look at the numbers as a team every week. And I think, you know, if you’re working together as a team and you like each other and you like the work that you’re doing, you’re going to be going in the right direction. But if you’re not measuring it, then you’re a little directionless, you know, like you’re kind of throwing spaghetti at the wall, I feel and seeing what works. So I think what we had was we had a very clear direction, very strong sense of value in community and then metrics to back up our assumptions.

Richard:

And I’m suddenly panicking like, “Oh, I should be metricking my “little boutique consulting company.” There should be a dashboard and some data that we’re collecting, I think we’re going in the right direction. But–

Lisette:

I mean, as a business owner, I’ve been working with a business coach for the last three years now on a weekly basis and setting up our metrics. And when you get your metric system set up, what I love about it so much is that you can start to really make decisions based on data. So that’s the part that I like the most, because there’s some things that you’re like, oh, I would’ve set that up differently, but because I measured along the way and was iterating along the way, you know, it just ended up in a– I think the thing that I can recommend for everybody is getting a coach who helps you look at metrics and keeps you accountable. ’cause I know I have a virtual personal trainer actually. And I’m all rambly, I apologize, but I have a virtual personal trainer, an actual coach, and he assigns me workouts via an app, but he checks on if I’m doing them or not via the iWatch. So he can see if I’m actually doing the workout. And then I get a little like encouragement from him, like from a real life person. And so I just like the idea of, yes, you can– What do I want to say? You can automate things, right? You can collect all the numbers, but if you don’t have a human guiding and looking at it along the way, it’s just not, you know, it’s still good. Start there, but like I would also get a human to guide along the way.

Richard:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I love this advice.

Lisette:

If you need my coach, I’m happy to recommend him.

Richard:

I’m going to take some of this advice. Is there anything else objectively about the “Happy Melly” team that an outsider would notice about what went into its greatness?

Lisette:

So this is going to sound a little bit odd. So one thing that I think– There’s two things that I think went into that. One is we had a team agreement from the start and that was really a strong foundation for how the team worked, is we actually sat down and outlined how we were going to work together, what was going to happen when conflicts came up. You know, it was like a prenuptial agreement. So you’re like, you’re going to talk about how you’re going to behave when emotions run high, before their emotions run high. Right? So we had like a– First, you have to go and talk to the person one on one, then you can escalate it to a public channel maybe. Or if you really are having trouble, we would hire an outside facilitator to come in and facilitate the conversation with the team. So a really strong team agreement. So that was one thing. And the other thing would be that we had a remote office manager. And I want to be careful here because I was the remote office manager, but I don’t think it was because of– It wasn’t that it was me, but it was the fact that we had that role in the team. Because there was somebody who was scheduling when the team agreements needed to be reviewed. I was keeping the Google Drive file organization system, you know, ’cause if you’re not looking at your files, your files can just explode easily. Everybody’s creating drafts and things are going everywhere. So, you know, we kept the information architecture of our company very nice and tidy, so that things were everywhere. So it was just somebody behind the scenes, just organizing and cleaning like a little WALL-E. I don’t know if people have seen the movie “WALL-E.” So I was like a little WALL-E, like cleaning up after, you know. When somebody leaves the meeting room, you know, you’re like making sure the meeting notes get organized and put somewhere and that kind of a thing. So I think that that kind of a role in a team because we had office managers in the real world, in the in-person world, but when we go remote that position sort of falls to the wayside. But I think that there’s really a role for that.

Richard:

Yeah, we definitely still need that. That helper facilitator, tying up all the loose ends.

Lisette:

Yeah, just sort of from the meta perspective, right. Like the bird’s eye view, you want to be able to look down and sort of see it from a workflow architecture perspective in some ways.

Richard:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So that right there is, is some advice, the metrics. This is good advice for people who want to replicate the success of the “Happy Melly” team. What other advice do you have for people to be able to replicate that team’s goodness?

Lisette:

So one is– Okay, metrics. We talked about that. Coaching. We talked about that. I would say regular feedback loops is critical. I mean it’s critical and agile teams know this and I can imagine a large portion of your audience are agile related people. So regular feedback loops. And then one-on-ones, they’re really hard and everybody’s busy, but I still like to make the case for one-on-ones. Just checking in and seeing if people are okay, especially now after the pandemic, like a lot of people are not okay. Like they’re tired. And so it’s just good to check in. And then one thing that came up for our team recently that I was really struck by, was we started asking the question in one of the team meetings, what can we do to make our workday more pleasurable? And it was interesting. So one of the first thing that came up was that everybody hated the Monday morning meetings and it was like, oh, alright. Like, okay, it’s not that they hated it, but we just weren’t looking forward to them. And so somebody just said like, “Man, I love meeting with you guys. “But Monday morning is rough. “Like I just need a little bit more ramp up time.” So we changed the Monday morning meetings to Tuesdays and that just like brought a lot of joy for the team. So I think what I liked about the question is, “What can we do to make our work more pleasurable?” was kind of a good one to pose to the team. It brought up some stuff, some other stuff that was just like, “Oh, interesting.” So that’s the advice I would give. Is, one, regular feedback loops, but also like really specifically asking how to make it better and maybe putting it in terms that you might not normally use at work and make sure that it’s appropriate. ‘Cause like pleasurable is an iffy word, right? Like it could go a number of ways. But anyway, but that’s what we use. I’m not trying to be inappropriate. That’s what we used. We were trying to make our workdays more pleasurable. So the other thing that I like about the one-on-ones that I want to go back to is that connection on teams and team building. And what I always say with remote, ’cause everybody’s struggling with team building, with remote. And what I always say is connection happens when we pay attention to each other. So with remote and virtual, we just need to find some ways to pay attention to each other, right? Like touch points. Maybe it’s an icebreaker. Maybe it’s a Slack channel. Maybe it’s the one-on-one. Maybe it’s the virtual coffee, you know, whatever it is, finding ways to really just like take note of something about your colleagues so that you can connect with them because we’re becoming so transactional and efficient online that we’re kind of forgetting to, you know, everybody complains, like at the office, the thing that everybody likes best is the spontaneity and we just don’t have it online unless you’re in some sort of virtual office or virtual world or something, but–

Richard:

Yeah.

Lisette:

Yeah, we just don’t have it.

Lisette:

And I get this. The Slack group, the virtual team talks Slack group. I get a little bit of this. My little company is so small that I don’t get much of it with my little company. It’s me and a couple of part timers and we get a little bit of it, but it’s like, “Hey look, it’s my doggy.” And somebody hearts, or happy faces the message.

Richard:

Totally.

Lisette:

Okay, somebody acknowledged me. That’s all it takes and I feel better.

Lisette:

For me, you know, virtual team talk is really enough. I’m one of those, it’s going to sound really odd again, but I’m one of those rare people, like I don’t need the team building on the team. I’ve got a really vibrant social community. Like I don’t need to– It sounds very odd. It’s not that I’m not a people person, but I’m really an introvert at the core. So I could spend weeks alone, no problem. And not speak to a single soul and not be affected at all. It would be fine by me. But yeah, so the team building, I always struggle with ’cause I have to do it from another person’s perspective. I can’t relate to it.

Richard:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s funny. Like, all I need is this microphone, this camera and my green screen.

Lisette:

Yeah.

Richard:

And everything will be okay.

Lisette:

And my computer ’cause that’s where all my friends live. Just kidding. I’ve really built a vibrant social life in 3D around me. And I did that on purpose ’cause I didn’t want to rely on– Because I already spend my whole life online.

Richard:

Yep. I had a question about, one of the things you mentioned was one-on-ones. I want to know more about that. When I think of one-on-ones, it’s the boss meeting with that person and then the boss meeting with that person and the boss meeting with that person, the boss is the hub of these one-on-ones. And that person, that person, that person, they’re not necessarily talking to each other so much, everything is going through the boss. What do you mean when you say one-on-ones?

Lisette:

You know it’s similar, but I– I want to write one more thing down, just ’cause I want to mention something that solves this. I had the experience years ago, like 12 years ago now. I was working for a company in California and I was in the Netherlands and my boss in that company, he used to call me on his way to work. I’ll go to work really early to beat traffic. So at 6:30 in the morning his time, 3:30 in the afternoon, my time, I’d get a call. And he is like, “Hey, I’m on the road. “Just checking in, seeing if you need anything “or if anything’s happened.” And some days it’d be like, “Nope, boss, I’m good. “Everything’s good. “I’m in flow. “I’ll keep going.” And other days it’d be like, “Oh yeah, I just had that client on the line. “I wanted just to ask you– “Since you called, “I’ll just ask you really quick about the client.” And so for me, the one-on-ones were always very informal. It was always like, “Hey, I’m just calling to check in, like everything okay? “Need anything?” So that was my experience. And so these formal one-on-ones sound terrible, right? Like where you’re like going into the office and everybody’s like, “Are you okay?” And you’re like, “Fine, totally fine. “Nothing to see here.”

Richard:

There’s a queue of people outside the boss’s office waiting for their turn.

Lisette:

Yeah. Yeah. Like, “Oh God, no, please don’t fire me.” You know, one of the other things that we did at Happy Melly, which was actually different than anywhere else that I’ve ever worked is we used the merit money system. That was one of the experiments that Jurgen ran on us, was the merit money. And it actually took us years to get merit money set up. And it started with hugs. Jurgen always had a different name for everything. Like our meetings weren’t meetings, they were huddles. And instead of points we would give each other hugs. I hated hugs. I’m not a touchy feely person like that. So I was just like, “Keep your hugs to yourself.” But we would give each other hugs.

Richard:

It’s not motivating me.

Lisette:

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I’m not motivated. Exactly. Anyway, so they turned into stars and then they just became points eventually. But what we ended up with as a system, after lots of iteration of every month, each person had a hundred points that they could give out to anybody on the team and you could give it for any reason. And we used a tool called bonus sleep, but there’s many, many tools. You could also just use a spreadsheet, right. And you would use this tool to then anytime somebody did something that was great or you liked, or you just wanted to show appreciation, you would give them points, up to a hundred in a month. And if you didn’t use their points, you would get rid of them. And what it ended up doing was provided a continuous feedback loop from every member on the team, not just from the manager down, about how you were doing on a month-by-month basis. So it’s not like the person who collected the most points was the best, but it was more that you were motivated to work out loud so that people knew what you were doing, so that they understood how you were contributing on the team. Like any system can be gamed. And so we were really careful to try to set this up so that it didn’t game the system. And of course, you know, you have to have the value structure on the team to be able to do that. But what it did end up show is over the months, everybody would get this continuous feedback of like, yeah, through the merit money system. And it would sort of inspire a conversation about how we were doing. So I think, you know, like informal one-on-ones, instead of these formal things, oh God, these must be awful. And then some sort of continuous feedback program so that you get 360 degree feedback from the team, not just top down. ‘Cause what happens if you have a manager that hates you? I had a job like that once. I mean, I didn’t like him and he didn’t like me and it was just like not going to change, you know? So one-on-one with him would be no fun at all for either of us. So yeah. Anyway, that was a long answer, I’m sorry.

Richard:

No, that’s perfect. That’s perfect. Let’s see. We’ve got a lot of concrete behaviors that you did with the Happy Melly group. And any other advice for listeners and viewers?

Lisette:

One thing I was thinking about, I used to do way back in the day, I would build private social networks for companies, which was basically we would build like a private– It wasn’t Facebook, but it was like Facebook, but a private environment for companies in order to network and share information. And so I was really studying what makes community? What are the components of community? And so there was, you know, there’s a lot of different things, but one of the things I learned from that study was that you can’t build the magic team. And I know it sounds weird, what I mean by that is you can build the conditions for the team to happen, for the team to emerge. But you can’t just say like, “Oh, just ’cause I get put these five brilliant rock stars “in place that they’re going to perform well together.” Right? You put the conditions in place for the team, so that the likelihood of success increases, right? Like if you’re trying to lose weight, sitting on the couch and eating potato chips, even if you eat less potato chips than usual, like you might lose a little bit of weight at first, but you’re still going to have to like, you know. You’ll increase the likelihood of success of losing weight if you go for a walk or a jog, you know, and eat an apple instead of the potato chip. So it’s not going to guarantee anything, but you will increase the likelihood. Right? So that’s what I think. So we want to build the conditions to happen, ’cause it’s part architecture, part luck and part magic. I’ve watched hundreds of rocumentaries, which are documentaries about rock bands of like– I’m a crazy fan for rocumentaries. But at all of them that you see that they, you know, each one of those bands is a team and that it’s kind of, some of those bands it’s pure magic, the way that they got together, like depeche mode or you know, just like random, these kids that knew each other when they were like 12 years old, you know, that like ended up being together the whole– Just these magic situations, that form great bands. So I would say people are really focused on building the team, but I would say actually you should be more focused on building the conditions that the team will be working in.

Richard:

Okay.

Lisette:

That’s my last advice.

Richard:

That’s so cool. Build the conditions that the team could work in.

Lisette:

Yeah, increase your likelihood of success.

Richard:

Yeah.

Lisette:

And I think for every team it’s different. Sorry.

Richard:

For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is great. This is great. Is there anything else you want to add?

Lisette:

No, I think I’ve talked everybody’s ear off already today. It’s like the end of the day for me, I’m really rambly.

Richard:

Well, you know, it’s a podcast. That’s what they’re here for.

Lisette:

That’s true. But you want to sort of, you know, the noise to ramble ratio should be good.

Richard:

There’s so much more I want to know. I’m going to ask you about rocumentaries after we stop recording. Maybe we’ll have a bonus episode about that. Who knows? If anybody wanted get in touch with you, is there a way they can do that?

Lisette:

Yeah, I would say collaborationsuperpowers.com. You’ll see everything about all the facilitators in the program. But if you look for me, I’m there for sure. I live online. So if you’re online, we’ll meet.

Richard:

Perfect, perfect, perfect. Lisette, thanks so much for joining us today. This has been awesome.

Lisette:

Thanks. It’s been a real pleasure being here. Thanks for inviting me.

Richard:

My pleasure. And remember viewers and listeners, to support this podcast, visit my website kasperowsk.com.